When I am discussing with a neighbor about getting into their device , I
use the following analogy:
/If you have a leak in your roof, it is fine until it rains. When it
starts raining and the roof leaks, is it the rain that is at fault or
the roof./
That analogy does not always work, but it illustrates the point.
Tom W0IVJ
On 12/25/2022 1:58 PM, Hare, Ed, W1RFI wrote:
I can see the reason for the suggestion, Gordon, but although the book will see an initial surge
in sales, we literally give away virtually all of the information on the RFI page on the ARRL.org
site, because solving RFI is so very much "for the good of the service" that none of it
is held behind the members-only wall. Once that initial surge is over, sales will taper back to
the low level they were previously and I am going to speculate that breaking it into volumes
would probably not be done. And, of course, if we did, the cost of two books would be more than
the cost of one, so there would be all sorts of discussion that ARRL did it to fill the coffers.
🙂
No, like the "consumer pamphlet," I think that if we need material to hand a
neighbor, we may want to really bite the bullet and just put it up on the page as a PDF.
I have a few other ideas that I don't want to put out there yet until I can talk them
over with management, but we may have ways to get the best of both worlds wrt consumer
information.
________________________________
From: James Gordon Beattie Jr<w2ttt@att.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 3:23 PM
To: Hare, Ed, W1RFI<w1rfi@arrl.org>;nk7z@arrl.net <dave@nk7z.net>;rfi@contesting.com
<rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
Ed,
Perhaps it would be good to have a two or more volume set on RFI. It could be
organized either as a volume for RFI from Amateur Radio and another volume for
RFI to Amateur Radio, or it could be grouped by device types and their RFI
relationship with Amateur Radio. Even if one volume, both organizational
models are worth discussing.
Thoughts?
73,
J. Gordon "Gordie" Beattie, Jr., W2TTT
201.314.6964
W2TTT@ATT.NET
Gordon.BeattieJr@VIAVISolutions.com
Get On The Air!
________________________________
From: RFI<rfi-bounces+w2ttt=att.net@contesting.com> on behalf of Hare, Ed,
W1RFI<w1rfi@arrl.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 2:44:22 PM
To:nk7z@arrl.net <dave@nk7z.net>;rfi@contesting.com <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
Actually, things have changed some with FCC since that decision was made, so I
am going to call in a few markers and see what realistically can be done.
Right now, the ARRL RFI Book is out of print, but Steve Anderson and I had
talked recently about putting together a plan to redo it, from scratch for a
few chapters. He will email you about some parts of that I think you can help
with, as soon as we talk to the editors about page rates for authorship, etc.
I could well see putting together a booklet that contains the consumer
pamphlet, the FCC material condensed as needed and some basic tips on resolving
interference.
Much of that older material, however, focused on interference FROM amateur
radio. Looking at this list alone, we can see that this has become less and
less of an issue. Most TV is watched on cable or streamed. Most telephone is
wireless and the industry is improving immunity on a regular basis. The
immunity standard that C63 wrote for the immunity of micromedia equipment
contains test levels we could not have imagined years ago, up to 300V/m
immunity. The smart grid immunity is spec'ed at 30 V/m or so, and we are
seeing that many devices do not exhibit RFI problems from nearby transmitters.
But the real problem is noise, and that is just as much of a "diplomacy" problem as
interference to neighbor's equipment. (The response can be, "So, the tables have turned, have
they?" Neighbors do not understand the issues involved with RFI, and seeing the
misinformation common here, hams struggle with some parts of it, too. So, hams need to start by
telling a neighbor that this device he just bought at Walmart is being operated in violation of
some federal law he doesn't even understand. We need brochures for that, too, and now that we
have our EMC staff pretty well trained in handling cases, we are branching out into these side
roads that are equally important.
Ed, W1RFI
________________________________
From: Dave (NK7Z)<dave@nk7z.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 1:52 PM
To: Hare, Ed, W1RFI<w1rfi@arrl.org>;rfi@contesting.com <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
Ed,
I applaud the ARRL's efforts along this line, and in general with
regards to RFI! THANK YOU for YOUR efforts, as well...
Maybe the ARRL could publish an actual book that the Amateur could hand
out to offenders, or victims of RFI!
Perhaps the FCC could add something back on the web page they run, and
the ARRL book could point at it...
Even better, maybe the ARRL could convince the FCC to make the book ARRL
available on the FCC web page as a PDF... I know the last request is
not going to happen but it felt good to say it... :)
73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
On 12/25/22 09:36, Hare, Ed, W1RFI wrote:
About 25 years ago, ARRL was contacted by an engineer who worked with
the FCC. He had been assigned to rewrite the FCC's RFI material. We
worked together over a number of months and came up with a book on
consumer interference that truly spoke to the issues. It lived on the
FCC web page for quite a while.
Unfortunately, the FCC, in its wisdom, decided that the RFI material
needed to be simplified. It removed much of what we had included
earlier. Fortunately, ARRL kept a copy and because it was authored by
the US government, it is public domain and may be circulated and used
freely. So we kept that technically accurate material on the ARRL web
page. The information on interference to consumer equipment is quite to
the point and will go a long way towards helping a neighbor to
understand. My personal favorite from the book is the following:
"Stereos, electronic organs, and intercom devices, among others, can
react to nearby radio transmitters. When this happens, the device
improperly functions as a radio receiver."
The text in its entirely is available at:
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf
<http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf>
ARRL also worked with the Consumer Electronics Association and prepared
a joint publication to help consumers understand interference causes and
cures.
This is no longer printed as a pamphlet, but the text is still mostly
current. (I can see some of the sources at the end need to be updated.)
The pamphlet text is available at:
https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
<https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf>
In the event a neighbor complains to the FCC, if they cite amateur
radio, the case will end up going to Laura Smith. She is well educated
on the types of interference that can and cannot be caused by rules
violations at an amateur station, so there is little risk that the
complaint alone will cause the amateur any problems. It is most likely
that she will send the case to ARRL, who will work with the amateur and
his/her neighbor under our cooperative agreements with FCC staff.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab
What To Do if You Have an Electronic Interference Problem - American
Radio Relay League
<https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf>
Page 5 of 7 Try the Easy Things First Sometimes, the easiest solutions
are the best. Many cases of interference can be resolved without the
need for technical investigations or knowledge.
www.arrl.org<http://www.arrl.org>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* RFI<rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com> on behalf of
Dave (NK7Z)<dave@nk7z.net>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 25, 2022 10:13 AM
*To:*rfi@contesting.com <rfi@contesting.com>
*Subject:* Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
Hi Dale,
For the most part that is not going to work well... No matter how much
you talk to your next door neighbor if you interfere with their <insert
device name here>, it is almost always your fault in their minds...
The logic goes like this:
"I have a <insert device name here>, it works 99% of the time, but when
you transmit it does not work..."
How do you think most people are going to react to that situation... So
as Amateurs, we start out handicapped, because the consumer is not
educated in how RFI responsibility is parsed out. The consumer is sure
it is you, not them...
Now lets reverse the victim status...
The consumer installs a multi thousand dollar <insert device name here>:
"I paid thousands to to install this, and had professionals install
it... I bought it from a manufacturer we all know and love. It can't
be my equipment..."
Again-- education of the consumer is the driver here. If the consumer
is happy, and the system is in place, the Amateur is already behind the
8-Ball, and again, the Amateur is handicapped as a result of lack of
education on the consumers part, with regards to parsing RFI responsibility.
This places an installer, or manufacturer, in the position of telling
the consumer that their newly installed multi thousand dollar widget,
may interfere with the amateur next door, and they, (the consumer), will
have to pay more to fix the issue...
Again, the consumer is going to whine about this state of affairs, and
neither the the manufacture, or the vendor, are going to tell the
consumer this, as they may lose the sale... Again, education issues for
the consumer, and maybe penalty's for the vendor if they don't tell the
consumer might help...
Until the consumer, not the Amateur, is directly affected by RFI, the
RFI nightmare we all live in, (if we are a city), will continue.
Part of the RFI "fix" MUST include education beyond the Part 15, or 18,
stickers on equipment to consumers... The consumer views these stickers
like the tags on mattresses that say "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER PENALTY OF
LAW", they are ignored, and removed, for the most part.
I really don't see how this will get solved in my lifetime... At 70, I
have perhaps 15 to 20, (if I am lucky), years left...
It will take that long just to cycle out most of the old gear, if a
mandate were to be put in place today.
I applaud the efforts of the ARRL, the only way to work this issue is to
educate everyone involved, and get standards in place...
Maybe the next generation of hams will see less RFI...
With regards to contracts... You are dead correct Dale!
I was lucky, I got my HVAC installer to put in his contract that if RFI
were to occur at a level I was not happy with, they would fix the issue,
or remove and replace the HVAC system. I doubt I could get that
concession again today... No RFI, occurred however, as we discussed
this with the vendor prior to install, (no PWM motors were used), and
the vendor contacted the manufacturer BEFORE starting on the project.
What next door neighbor is going to tell a vendor, you had better be
ready to charge me more, if the ham next door complains...
Consumers MUST be educated about RFI responsibilities, as part of an
overall fix, if RFI is to be reduced...
73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net <https://www.nk7z.net>
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
On 12/25/22 01:04, Dale wrote:
so it would seem that we hams try to work with our neighbors to minimize the
problems from their systems
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
<http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi>
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
|