Hi Guys
I would agree that it's usually the Amateur's fault when dealing with a
neighbor.
I had a problem that had become so bad that the neighbor hired my section
manager to fight for him.
This guy was out for blood before it was all over and done with. I had
spent an entire day with a FCC agent
who showed up at my front door with his partner.
And we went over everything I had here. I wont get into specifics
unless off the reflector.
But a 2 meter 5 watt signal causing Audio rectification into one of three
televisions in the
house next door was the problem and the lies and hatred built up to the
point he wanted my license revoked.
I'm amazed at what lengths people will go . Laura Smith was involved. I
still have my ticket, the league was no help' and the neighbor in question
moved.
And to my amazement our new neighbors have no RFI or TV.I I also had to
prove at that time to the FCC that I was not causing any problems in my own
home .
Be careful is all I can say as this all took place on a Friday that I had
taken off from work to celebrate my 50th birthday with my wife. The
scheduled movie we had bought tickets to
go see was missed as was dinner out . My wife was livid . We explained to
the agents our plans; they didn't care if it was his job .
Do the inspection or possibly forfeit your license. I've invested too
much time and money and was not going to give up this hobby . It was a day
I will never forget.
Now I hope this never happens to anyone reading this but I believe to this
day that MONEY to an attorney and the contempt this guy felt was the reason
it went that far
RFI is a tricky thing. I don't bother with things in my home or next door
at all.and I have several TVs, a surround sound system, cordless phones and
computer speakers .etc etc
All i can say is your mileage may vary.
Ted
On Sun, Dec 25, 2022 at 2:45 PM <rfi-request@contesting.com> wrote:
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> 1. Re: Another Solar Panel RFI System (Hare, Ed, W1RFI)
> 2. Re: Another Solar Panel RFI System (Hare, Ed, W1RFI)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2022 19:33:57 +0000
> From: "Hare, Ed, W1RFI" <w1rfi@arrl.org>
> To: "nk7z@arrl.net" <dave@nk7z.net>, "rfi@contesting.com"
> <rfi@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
> Message-ID:
> <
> BLAPR16MB3842ED1358F9BE7B5854703398EF9@BLAPR16MB3842.namprd16.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> We are having a similar problem, but for real, with Samsung stoves that
> apparently turn on burners or the self-clean feature of the oven, seemingly
> in response to RFI. They are in full denial and non-response mode.
> Unfortunately, there are no immunity regulations in the US, so we can't
> turn to the FCC for help because there are no rules to enforce.
>
> I am getting ready for Plan B, which is to draft a pretty damning article
> and send it to their media PR department. That has been known to get some
> real action.
>
> Not all problems are solved solely with technology. ?
> ________________________________
> From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com> on behalf of Dave
> (NK7Z) <dave@nk7z.net>
> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 1:57 PM
> To: rfi@contesting.com <rfi@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
>
> Tell me about it! I had a neighbor start on me about their stove clock
> getting reset when I transmitted on 17 Meters...
>
> They complained to the vendor, and the vendor told them it was the
> Amateur Radio Operators fault...
>
> That took several months to sort out... Still not fully sorted out, but
> I no longer care. The neighbor told me they were trying to game the
> stove manufacturer into getting a better model via the RFI angle... I
> added that to my RFI log, and ceased worrying about it at that point...
> I now work DX on 17... :)
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 12/25/22 10:22, David Eckhardt wrote:
> > We once owned an Allen 2-manual "digital" church organ which we lost in
> > a major forest fire in 2012. Yes, I played the pipe organ. I remember
> > when Part 15 was tightened and Allen went through quite an intense
> > effort to repackage and decouple everything so it would comply with the
> > tighter standards.
> >
> > I could operate legal power to an inverted Vee which had the feedpoint
> > directly over the house at roughly 15 feet above the roof. It was fed
> > with parallel conductor transmission line. I
> > never.....never......interfered with that organ on any band and at any
> > output power to the feedline. It didn't matter whether it was on or
> > off, no interference.
> >
> > Not all appliances are so responsible.
> >
> > Dave - W?LEV
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 25, 2022 at 5:37 PM Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi@arrl.org
> > <mailto:w1rfi@arrl.org>> wrote:
> >
> > About 25 years ago, ARRL was contacted by an engineer who worked
> > with the FCC. He had been assigned to rewrite the FCC's RFI
> > material. We worked together over a number of months and came up
> > with a book on consumer interference that truly spoke to the issues.
> > It lived on the FCC web page for quite a while.
> >
> > Unfortunately, the FCC, in its wisdom, decided that the RFI material
> > needed to be simplified. It removed much of what we had included
> > earlier. Fortunately, ARRL kept a copy and because it was authored
> > by the US government, it is public domain and may be circulated and
> > used freely. So we kept that technically accurate material on the
> > ARRL web page. The information on interference to consumer
> > equipment is quite to the point and will go a long way towards
> > helping a neighbor to understand. My personal favorite from the
> > book is the following:
> >
> > "Stereos, electronic organs, and intercom devices, among others, can
> > react to nearby radio transmitters. When this happens, the device
> > improperly functions as a radio receiver."
> >
> > The text in its entirely is available at:
> >
> >
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf
> <
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf
> >
> >
> > ARRL also worked with the Consumer Electronics Association and
> > prepared a joint publication to help consumers understand
> > interference causes and cures.
> >
> > This is no longer printed as a pamphlet, but the text is still
> > mostly current. (I can see some of the sources at the end need to be
> > updated.)
> >
> > The pamphlet text is available at:
> >
> >
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
> <
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
> >
> >
> > In the event a neighbor complains to the FCC, if they cite amateur
> > radio, the case will end up going to Laura Smith. She is well
> > educated on the types of interference that can and cannot be caused
> > by rules violations at an amateur station, so there is little risk
> > that the complaint alone will cause the amateur any problems. It is
> > most likely that she will send the case to ARRL, who will work with
> > the amateur and his/her neighbor under our cooperative agreements
> > with FCC staff.
> >
> > Ed Hare, W1RFI
> > ARRL Lab
> >
> >
> > What To Do if You Have an Electronic Interference Problem - American
> > Radio Relay
> > League<
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
> <
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
> >>
> > Page 5 of 7 Try the Easy Things First Sometimes, the easiest
> > solutions are the best. Many cases of interference can be resolved
> > without the need for technical investigations or knowledge.
> > www.arrl.org<http://www.arrl.org> <http://www.arrl.org>
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com
> > <mailto:arrl.org@contesting.com>> on behalf of Dave (NK7Z)
> > <dave@nk7z.net <mailto:dave@nk7z.net>>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 10:13 AM
> > To: rfi@contesting.com <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
> > <rfi@contesting.com <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
> >
> > Hi Dale,
> >
> > For the most part that is not going to work well... No matter how
> much
> > you talk to your next door neighbor if you interfere with their
> <insert
> > device name here>, it is almost always your fault in their minds...
> > The logic goes like this:
> >
> > "I have a <insert device name here>, it works 99% of the time, but
> when
> > you transmit it does not work..."
> >
> > How do you think most people are going to react to that
> situation... So
> > as Amateurs, we start out handicapped, because the consumer is not
> > educated in how RFI responsibility is parsed out. The consumer is
> sure
> > it is you, not them...
> >
> > Now lets reverse the victim status...
> >
> > The consumer installs a multi thousand dollar <insert device name
> here>:
> >
> > "I paid thousands to to install this, and had professionals install
> > it... I bought it from a manufacturer we all know and love. It
> can't
> > be my equipment..."
> >
> > Again-- education of the consumer is the driver here. If the
> consumer
> > is happy, and the system is in place, the Amateur is already behind
> the
> > 8-Ball, and again, the Amateur is handicapped as a result of lack of
> > education on the consumers part, with regards to parsing RFI
> > responsibility.
> >
> > This places an installer, or manufacturer, in the position of telling
> > the consumer that their newly installed multi thousand dollar widget,
> > may interfere with the amateur next door, and they, (the consumer),
> will
> > have to pay more to fix the issue...
> >
> > Again, the consumer is going to whine about this state of affairs,
> and
> > neither the the manufacture, or the vendor, are going to tell the
> > consumer this, as they may lose the sale... Again, education issues
> for
> > the consumer, and maybe penalty's for the vendor if they don't tell
> the
> > consumer might help...
> >
> > Until the consumer, not the Amateur, is directly affected by RFI, the
> > RFI nightmare we all live in, (if we are a city), will continue.
> >
> > Part of the RFI "fix" MUST include education beyond the Part 15, or
> 18,
> > stickers on equipment to consumers... The consumer views these
> stickers
> > like the tags on mattresses that say "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER PENALTY OF
> > LAW", they are ignored, and removed, for the most part.
> >
> > I really don't see how this will get solved in my lifetime... At
> 70, I
> > have perhaps 15 to 20, (if I am lucky), years left...
> >
> > It will take that long just to cycle out most of the old gear, if a
> > mandate were to be put in place today.
> >
> > I applaud the efforts of the ARRL, the only way to work this issue
> is to
> > educate everyone involved, and get standards in place...
> >
> > Maybe the next generation of hams will see less RFI...
> >
> > With regards to contracts... You are dead correct Dale!
> >
> > I was lucky, I got my HVAC installer to put in his contract that if
> RFI
> > were to occur at a level I was not happy with, they would fix the
> issue,
> > or remove and replace the HVAC system. I doubt I could get that
> > concession again today... No RFI, occurred however, as we discussed
> > this with the vendor prior to install, (no PWM motors were used), and
> > the vendor contacted the manufacturer BEFORE starting on the project.
> >
> > What next door neighbor is going to tell a vendor, you had better be
> > ready to charge me more, if the ham next door complains...
> >
> > Consumers MUST be educated about RFI responsibilities, as part of an
> > overall fix, if RFI is to be reduced...
> >
> > 73, and thanks,
> > Dave (NK7Z)
> > https://www.nk7z.net <https://www.nk7z.net>
> > ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> > ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
> >
> > On 12/25/22 01:04, Dale wrote:
> > > so it would seem that we hams try to work with our neighbors to
> > minimize the problems from their systems
> > _______________________________________________
> > RFI mailing list
> > RFI@contesting.com <mailto:RFI@contesting.com>
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
> > <http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi>
> > _______________________________________________
> > RFI mailing list
> > RFI@contesting.com <mailto:RFI@contesting.com>
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
> > <http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Dave - W?LEV*
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> RFI mailing list
> RFI@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2022 19:44:22 +0000
> From: "Hare, Ed, W1RFI" <w1rfi@arrl.org>
> To: "nk7z@arrl.net" <dave@nk7z.net>, "rfi@contesting.com"
> <rfi@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
> Message-ID:
> <
> BLAPR16MB3842B105D39474FAE8DD289D98EF9@BLAPR16MB3842.namprd16.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Actually, things have changed some with FCC since that decision was made,
> so I am going to call in a few markers and see what realistically can be
> done.
>
> Right now, the ARRL RFI Book is out of print, but Steve Anderson and I had
> talked recently about putting together a plan to redo it, from scratch for
> a few chapters. He will email you about some parts of that I think you can
> help with, as soon as we talk to the editors about page rates for
> authorship, etc.
>
> I could well see putting together a booklet that contains the consumer
> pamphlet, the FCC material condensed as needed and some basic tips on
> resolving interference.
>
> Much of that older material, however, focused on interference FROM amateur
> radio. Looking at this list alone, we can see that this has become less and
> less of an issue. Most TV is watched on cable or streamed. Most telephone
> is wireless and the industry is improving immunity on a regular basis. The
> immunity standard that C63 wrote for the immunity of micromedia equipment
> contains test levels we could not have imagined years ago, up to 300V/m
> immunity. The smart grid immunity is spec'ed at 30 V/m or so, and we are
> seeing that many devices do not exhibit RFI problems from nearby
> transmitters.
>
> But the real problem is noise, and that is just as much of a "diplomacy"
> problem as interference to neighbor's equipment. (The response can be, "So,
> the tables have turned, have they?" Neighbors do not understand the issues
> involved with RFI, and seeing the misinformation common here, hams struggle
> with some parts of it, too. So, hams need to start by telling a neighbor
> that this device he just bought at Walmart is being operated in violation
> of some federal law he doesn't even understand. We need brochures for
> that, too, and now that we have our EMC staff pretty well trained in
> handling cases, we are branching out into these side roads that are equally
> important.
>
> Ed, W1RFI
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dave (NK7Z) <dave@nk7z.net>
> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 1:52 PM
> To: Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi@arrl.org>; rfi@contesting.com <
> rfi@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
>
> Ed,
>
> I applaud the ARRL's efforts along this line, and in general with
> regards to RFI! THANK YOU for YOUR efforts, as well...
>
> Maybe the ARRL could publish an actual book that the Amateur could hand
> out to offenders, or victims of RFI!
>
> Perhaps the FCC could add something back on the web page they run, and
> the ARRL book could point at it...
>
> Even better, maybe the ARRL could convince the FCC to make the book ARRL
> available on the FCC web page as a PDF... I know the last request is
> not going to happen but it felt good to say it... :)
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 12/25/22 09:36, Hare, Ed, W1RFI wrote:
> > About 25 years ago, ARRL was contacted by an engineer who worked with
> > the FCC. He had been assigned to rewrite the FCC's RFI material. We
> > worked together over a number of months and came up with a book on
> > consumer interference that truly spoke to the issues. It lived on the
> > FCC web page for quite a while.
> >
> > Unfortunately, the FCC, in its wisdom, decided that the RFI material
> > needed to be simplified. It removed much of what we had included
> > earlier. Fortunately, ARRL kept a copy and because it was authored by
> > the US government, it is public domain and may be circulated and used
> > freely. So we kept that technically accurate material on the ARRL web
> > page. The information on interference to consumer equipment is quite to
> > the point and will go a long way towards helping a neighbor to
> > understand. My personal favorite from the book is the following:
> >
> > "Stereos, electronic organs, and intercom devices, among others, can
> > react to nearby radio transmitters. When this happens, the device
> > improperly functions as a radio receiver."
> >
> > The text in its entirely is available at:
> >
> >
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf
> <
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf
> >
> >
> > ARRL also worked with the Consumer Electronics Association and prepared
> > a joint publication to help consumers understand interference causes and
> > cures.
> >
> > This is no longer printed as a pamphlet, but the text is still mostly
> > current. (I can see some of the sources at the end need to be updated.)
> >
> > The pamphlet text is available at:
> >
> >
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
> <
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
> >
> >
> > In the event a neighbor complains to the FCC, if they cite amateur
> > radio, the case will end up going to Laura Smith. She is well educated
> > on the types of interference that can and cannot be caused by rules
> > violations at an amateur station, so there is little risk that the
> > complaint alone will cause the amateur any problems. It is most likely
> > that she will send the case to ARRL, who will work with the amateur and
> > his/her neighbor under our cooperative agreements with FCC staff.
> >
> > Ed Hare, W1RFI
> > ARRL Lab
> >
> >
> > What To Do if You Have an Electronic Interference Problem - American
> > Radio Relay League
> > <
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf
> >
> > Page 5 of 7 Try the Easy Things First Sometimes, the easiest solutions
> > are the best. Many cases of interference can be resolved without the
> > need for technical investigations or knowledge.
> > www.arrl.org<http://www.arrl.org>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com> on behalf of
> > Dave (NK7Z) <dave@nk7z.net>
> > *Sent:* Sunday, December 25, 2022 10:13 AM
> > *To:* rfi@contesting.com <rfi@contesting.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
> > Hi Dale,
> >
> > For the most part that is not going to work well... No matter how much
> > you talk to your next door neighbor if you interfere with their <insert
> > device name here>, it is almost always your fault in their minds...
> > The logic goes like this:
> >
> > "I have a <insert device name here>, it works 99% of the time, but when
> > you transmit it does not work..."
> >
> > How do you think most people are going to react to that situation... So
> > as Amateurs, we start out handicapped, because the consumer is not
> > educated in how RFI responsibility is parsed out. The consumer is sure
> > it is you, not them...
> >
> > Now lets reverse the victim status...
> >
> > The consumer installs a multi thousand dollar <insert device name here>:
> >
> > "I paid thousands to to install this, and had professionals install
> > it... I bought it from a manufacturer we all know and love. It can't
> > be my equipment..."
> >
> > Again-- education of the consumer is the driver here. If the consumer
> > is happy, and the system is in place, the Amateur is already behind the
> > 8-Ball, and again, the Amateur is handicapped as a result of lack of
> > education on the consumers part, with regards to parsing RFI
> responsibility.
> >
> > This places an installer, or manufacturer, in the position of telling
> > the consumer that their newly installed multi thousand dollar widget,
> > may interfere with the amateur next door, and they, (the consumer), will
> > have to pay more to fix the issue...
> >
> > Again, the consumer is going to whine about this state of affairs, and
> > neither the the manufacture, or the vendor, are going to tell the
> > consumer this, as they may lose the sale... Again, education issues for
> > the consumer, and maybe penalty's for the vendor if they don't tell the
> > consumer might help...
> >
> > Until the consumer, not the Amateur, is directly affected by RFI, the
> > RFI nightmare we all live in, (if we are a city), will continue.
> >
> > Part of the RFI "fix" MUST include education beyond the Part 15, or 18,
> > stickers on equipment to consumers... The consumer views these stickers
> > like the tags on mattresses that say "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER PENALTY OF
> > LAW", they are ignored, and removed, for the most part.
> >
> > I really don't see how this will get solved in my lifetime... At 70, I
> > have perhaps 15 to 20, (if I am lucky), years left...
> >
> > It will take that long just to cycle out most of the old gear, if a
> > mandate were to be put in place today.
> >
> > I applaud the efforts of the ARRL, the only way to work this issue is to
> > educate everyone involved, and get standards in place...
> >
> > Maybe the next generation of hams will see less RFI...
> >
> > With regards to contracts... You are dead correct Dale!
> >
> > I was lucky, I got my HVAC installer to put in his contract that if RFI
> > were to occur at a level I was not happy with, they would fix the issue,
> > or remove and replace the HVAC system. I doubt I could get that
> > concession again today... No RFI, occurred however, as we discussed
> > this with the vendor prior to install, (no PWM motors were used), and
> > the vendor contacted the manufacturer BEFORE starting on the project.
> >
> > What next door neighbor is going to tell a vendor, you had better be
> > ready to charge me more, if the ham next door complains...
> >
> > Consumers MUST be educated about RFI responsibilities, as part of an
> > overall fix, if RFI is to be reduced...
> >
> > 73, and thanks,
> > Dave (NK7Z)
> > https://www.nk7z.net <https://www.nk7z.net>
> > ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> > ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
> >
> > On 12/25/22 01:04, Dale wrote:
> >> so it would seem that we hams try to work with our neighbors to
> minimize the problems from their systems
> > _______________________________________________
> > RFI mailing list
> > RFI@contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
> > <http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> RFI mailing list
> RFI@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of RFI Digest, Vol 239, Issue 40
> ************************************
>
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