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Re: [RFI] Sense antenna for ANC-4 power line rfi?

To: "Cianciolo, Paul, W1VLF" <pcianciolo@arrl.org>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Sense antenna for ANC-4 power line rfi?
From: myles landstein <myles.landstein@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 13:54:06 -0500
List-post: <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
I’ll also throw in,  if you're using the anc4 as designed. I did find it very 
helpful for getting rid of a few kinds of noise in few specific circumstances , 
worked great.

your millage my vary

regards
n2ehg
myles

> On Jan 13, 2021, at 1:20 PM, Cianciolo, Paul, W1VLF <pcianciolo@arrl.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> I call it "quality noise"
> You want just your target  noise to invert and cancel.
> 
> Anything else will tend to add "new" noises from the pickup antenna.
> See here
> 
> https://youtu.be/spre7Wn0Kqs
> 
> 
> 73,
> 
> Paul Cianciolo, W1VLF
> ARRL EMC Engineer
> 
> ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio™
> 225 Main Street, Newington, CT 06111-1400 USA 
> Telephone: (860) 594-0392 
> FAX: (860) 594-0259
> Email: w1vlf@arrl.org
> World Wide Web: www.arrl.org
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RFI <rfi-bounces+pcianciolo=arrl.org@contesting.com> On Behalf Of Mike 
> Martin
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:57 AM
> To: Dave Cole <dave@nk7z.net>
> Cc: rfi@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [RFI] Sense antenna for ANC-4 power line rfi?
> 
> Hey guys consider this, you can look at a noise on two antennas exactly the 
> same but located in different places in your yard and see different noises. 
> That's a fact.
> So if you're using a noise cancellation device you can't expect the antenna 
> you're using for that device to see the same noise that you see when the 
> antenna with the symptoms. So you have to make sure that the cancellation 
> device antenna is seeing the same noise that you're picking up in your 
> receivers and causing interference to the one it's signal. once you achieve 
> that then the noise cancellation device will work quite well. but if your 
> noise cancellation device sees a different noise then you're canceling the 
> wrong noise therefore it doesn't work properly. I wish I had more time to 
> explain further but unfortunately I'm out here looking for noise and don't 
> have the time.
> Just so you know I also don't have time to proofread my voice to text message 
> so please excuse the mistakes and type of graphical errors. LOL
> 
> ⁣Happy 2021,
> Mike
> 
> Get BlueMail for Android ​
> 
> On Jan 13, 2021, 9:15 AM, at 9:15 AM, Dave Cole <dave@nk7z.net> wrote:
>> Charles,
>> 
>> You may find that the phase type noise reducers don't work so well on 
>> power line noise...  It can help-- but mostly it will not be very 
>> effective for distributed RFI sources.
>> 
>> The source of transmission can be distributed, (not in all cases), 
>> along several hundred, to several thousand feet of power line.  This 
>> means that depending on the distance traveled down the power line, the 
>> distance to your sense antenna, and the distance to your main antenna, 
>> RFI will arrive at different times, and hence different phase 
>> relationships to each other, from every point along the power line that
>> 
>> carries the RFI.
>> 
>> Given that the ANC-4 is a phase cancellation device, (it looks at your 
>> main antenna, and your sense antenna, and tries to phase cancel an  RF 
>> signal based on phase relationship), this can cause no end of issues.
>> 
>> Now imagine the signals the ANC will see if your RFI is being 
>> re-radiated along several hundred, or thousand feet of power line.  You
>> 
>> will be able to cancel some, but not a lot of the RFI.
>> 
>> If you are lucky, you will have a specular source, and no re-radiation,
>> 
>> which will allow you to cancel most of the offending signal out...
>> 
>> Your idea is a good one, and might help...  RFI suppression is always 
>> fun, when it works...  Good luck.  Please do post your results.
>> 
>> 73, and thanks,
>> Dave (NK7Z)
>> https://www.nk7z.net
>> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
>> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
>> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>> 
>> On 1/12/21 11:07 PM, Charles Plunk wrote:
>>> While waiting on my powerline arc to return in force enough to have 
>>> confidence it will be ongoing when I call TVA in, thought I would
>> play
>>> with improving the sense antenna on my Timewave ANC-4. The 3 phase
>> power
>>> runs at the edge of my lot up to the suspect pole. So the noise is 
>>> radiating up this way and all the more reason its strong on me I 
>>> suspect. I have a storage building underneath the lines. I am
>> thinking
>>> about a vertical made for a scanning receiver I came across and
>> mounting
>>> it up under the lines on that building. I will tack it up there
>> somehow
>>> and move it around to get a sweet spot maybe. Any better ideas?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chuck
>>> AF4O
>>> 
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